Note: Mr. Gray, who claims to have no personal reason for sending his observations and opinions about the Safe2Use products and web site to individuals at the EPA, works for Jellinek, Schwartz & Connolly, Inc. which provides services to assist companies that manufacture agricultural, industrial and consumer chemicals, biotechnology products and biocides, and fuel and fuel additives. (This company is the prime mover in keeping Malathion readily available to the general public and government for spraying.)
Without the development, registration and sale of dangerous chemicals and synthetic pesticide poisons, Mr. Gray and his company would be out of business...
I'm not sure whether it is the products that are on our site or the fact that we have over 500 pages of alternatives to, information about and links relating to the dangers of registered pesticide poisons. Apparently, he feels we're being unfair to Dow, Monsanto, duPont, Union Carbide, etc... etc...
I guess we've
annoyed him.... So Name your Poison..... Here's how he
started it:
Subject: falling off a log easy
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:38:06 -0500
From: Ed Gray <EdGray@jscinc.com>
To: flaherty.phyllis@epa.gov,
levine.tina@epa.gov,
roberts.patricia@epa.org
CC: info@safe2use.com
If you're looking for a classic offer to sell what I am pretty sure is an unregistered pesticide, see
http://info@safe2use.com
Note particularly the cute warning that this "shampoo" is toxic to lice, so that if you don't want to kill lice you shouldn't use this product.
This product is being touted as great by a person submitting messages on the EPA-funded Oregon State FQPA list serve. Note that I have no reason to point this out other than my desire to have these creeps go through what everyone else has to at OPP
Safe 2 Use Does not Sell Pesticides
From: Safe 2 Use <info@safe2use.com>
Organization: Safe 2 Use
To: Ed Gray <EdGray@jscinc.com>
CC: flaherty.phyllis@epa.gov,
levine.tina@epa.gov, roberts.patricia@epa.org
Dear Mr. Gray,
We do not sell pesticides nor do we say that any of our products are sold as pesticides. In fact, we clearly state that these products are not sold as pesticides.
All our enzymes products are GRAS or food grade quality.
NO PESTICIDE IS SAFE.
If you have a specific example of where we have claimed this is being sold as a pesticide, please let us know and we will remove it.
Thank you,
---------------------------------------------------------
Safe2Use http://www.safe2use.com
Phone: 760-250-5881
---------------------------------------------------------
Environmental and People Safe Products for your
Home, School and Business
Witty Response????
Subject: Re: falling off a log easy -Reply
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:13:56 -0500
From: Ed Gray <EdGray@jscinc.com>
To: info@safe2use.com
why did i think that would be your response?
WE RESPONDED AGAIN:
The
Truth will Set you Free!
but
Mr. Gray won't.
From: Safe 2 Use <info@safe2use.com>
Organization: Safe 2 Use
To: Ed Gray <EdGray@jscinc.com>
CC: flaherty.phyllis@epa.gov,
levine.tina@epa.gov, roberts.patricia@epa.org
Mr. Gray,
We responded that way because that is the truth.
We requested that you point out specifically where Safe 2 Use has made a pesticidal claim and if such had occurred, we would correct it immediately.
Unless you have more to offer, we would appreciate an apology. We are not creeps, we are actually human beings. We do not sell pesticides, but I suspect your company does well in that area.
---------------------------------------------------------
Safe2Use
http://www.safe2use.com
Phone: 760-240-5881
---------------------------------------------------------
Environmental and People Safe Products for your
Home, School and Business
We were not sure if Mr. Gray
wanted our business?
His firm insures that pesticide
POISONS and TOXIC chemicals get (and stay) registered and maybe he's afraid
we'll put him out of business.
But it's hard to tell.
Calling names isn't the best
way to get business.
You be the judge.
Subject: Re: falling off a log easy -Reply -Reply
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:56:55 -0500
From: Ed Gray <EdGray@jscinc.com>
To: info@safe2use.com
CC: flaherty.phyllis@epa.gov,
levine.tina@epa.gov, roberts.patricia@epa.gov
Yeah, you're right, I should not have used the word "creeps." There are more precise words that I wish I would have used instead. What I meant to convey is my dislike for businesses that don't bother to comply wiith requirements of law governing the products they sell, and that, in order to improve the volume of sales of these illegally marketed products, take undocumented potshots at competing products that are duly approved by government regulators, and publish accusations of various types of misbehavior and corruptness against the government regulators as well, again in order to increase sales of their illegally marketed products.
I think your business's behavior falls into that category. I think your business is marketing a pesticide. You asked me why I think that. FIFRA defines "pesticide" as "any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest." Claims that a product controls body lice ordinarily would be thought of as pesticidal claims, for fairly obvious reasons. You don't have to claim that a product kills lice in order for a claim for lice control to be a pesticidal claim. (Although in your case you do throw in that cute warning that says your product will kill lice. Also, I see that the recommendation letter signed by Dr. Marion Moses, which you feature prominently in your web site, says that your product "destroys the excoskeleton [sic] of the nit by dissolving its protective coating," which sounds pretty darned pesticidal to me). And if you are making a pesticidal claim you can't avoid having your product regarded as a pesticide merely because you include exculpatory language that says it isn't a a pesticide or that it isn't intended for use as one. And certainly the fact that your product is not registered does not mean it is not a pesticide.
There are some statutory exclusions from the definition, although none I can think of that would apply to your product. There are also some administratively created exemptions from the definition of pesticide, or from the requirement to register a pesticide; they are set forth in 40 CFR Part 152. If your product is a drug that is a "new drug" or has been determined by FDA not to be a new drug in a regulation that sets forth conditions for its use, then you probably don't have to be registerd under FIFRA. That's what gets the lindane and malathion lice control products out from under EPA jurisdiction. Sorry, GRAS determinations about what can be included in food don't count. "Cleaning agents" also are exempt from registration IF no pesticidal claim is made for them on their labeling or in connection with their sale or distribution--sorry, it looks to me like you don't satisfy the IF clause. Finally, there's a list of compounds that EPA deems "minimum risk pesticides" that EPA has exempted from the requirements of FIFRA--sorry, your ingredients aren't listed.
I strongly suggest you and your lawyers read 40 CFR Part 152, especially subparts A and B. See also Pesticide Regulation Notice 94-6 on the EPA Pesticide website.
I certainly am not trying to give you a legal opinion, just my reading of the law and regulations and how I think EPA interprets them. Consider it free advise. For all I know your product may be a good one, but I sure think it needs to be registered under FIFRA.
Perhaps you have already obtained from EPA some sort of determination that your product isn't a pesticide and/or does not have to be registered. If so, I will be happy to apologize. However, I would be quite surprised to hear about it.
Have you also checked carefully to see that your product is not a drug, perhaps even an unapproved new drug, within the meaning of the FFDC Act? And have you checked to see whether your product really is a cosmetic, and if so, whether its labeling complies with the requirements for cosmetics?
Finally, in response to your accusation/insinuation at the end of your last message to me: I don't work for a company that sells pesticides. I do work for a company that helps pesticide producers get products registered and stay registered (but as far as I know none of them are your competitors and if any are, I am not engaged by them to work on any issues regarding lice control).
The Calvary arrived in the nick of time:
Is Beer an unregistered rat poison?
Subject: Is Beer really an unregistered rat poison?
Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 15:09:59
-0800
From: Safe 2 Use <info@safe2use.com>
Organization: Safe 2 Use
CC: flaherty.phyllis@epa.gov,
levine.tina@epa.gov,
roberts.patricia@epa.gov,
Steve
Tvedten <steve@getipm.com>
Dear Mr Gray,
Linda Jensen-Pascarella asked me to respond to your letter. For the record, Safe2Use does not market any unregistered pesticides, nor do they make any pesticidal claims of which I am aware. Nor am I a part of their organization.
In this country, people like Dr. Marion Moses and/or I are still free to speak and/or write whatever we believe is true. We/I have made some remarks about Safe2Use products as safe alternatives to dangerous "registered" pesticide POISONS. Safe2Use is very careful not to make any such claims. As you well know, it is against the federal law to state that even the labeled use of any "registered" pesticide POISON is "safe". All of the products/ingredients that Safe2use sell, are all GRAS or food grade materials. People who wish to avoid your dangerous (by their very definition) POISONS and their secret "inerts" still are free in this country to look for safe alternatives, whether they be soap and water, saunas or mayonnaise.
In 1993, EPA, FDA and the USDA all agreed to find alternatives to "registered" pesticide poisons. However, the way you describe "pesticides" means there can be no "legal" alternatives. It is interesting that you make your living "registering" pesticide POISONS. Would you like to describe the word "alternatives" for me? Why would you register any safe alternative?
For many years, I have advocated that people use Bud Light beer to kill rats. You chill a quart of Bud Light beer and a Lasagna pan (lightly coated with vegetable oil) to 34 degrees Fahrenheit. Then the last person leaving the building slowly pours the Bud Light into the Lasagna pan, and leaves it where they saw evidence of rats. You do this for up to six nights - each time with fresh (effervescent) Bud Light. The rats die, because they can not fart, vomit or belch. Perhaps you should also write Budweiser and tell them to "register" their beer as a rodenticide poison. I also tell many people to use Budweiser beer to control snails and slugs; maybe you should have Budweiser also register their beer as a mollucicide poison too. I think they will also be quite upset you have called their food grade product an "illegally marketed product" and/or that they have made any pesticidal claims and/or that their beer is now an unregistered/illegal POISON - which it is, by your definition of the word "pesticide"!
For the record, I believe that there are many unregistered alternatives that control pests safely and more effectively and for far less money than any of your "registered" pesticide POISONS - and that simple fact does not make any of these safe alternatives automatically become unregistered pesticide POISONS!
I have safely and effectively controlled mosquitoes, cockroaches and many pests simply with a breeze - are you going to require the air now has to be "registered"? Who would pay to have the air "registered"? I have also safely removed all of the pests inside and outside in over 350 schools using many different, safe alternatives/techniques and I never needed to resort to any volatile pesticide POISONS! Some of these same schools were "treated" with numerous "registered" pesticde POISONS every week for as long as 17 years - without ever acheiving pest elimination!
If and when you do write Budweiser, I have approximately 1700 other unregistered alternatives to your "registered" POISONS; if you wish I will send you a partial list of all the "offending" manufacturers, distributors, dealers, etc., of these safe but unregistered alternatives so you can also write them about their "illegal" marketing activities. There are, obviously, all in a "gray" area too.
If you would like to debate this issue publically, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter of using safe, unregistered alternatives to effectively control (even pesticide resistant) pest problems, rather than using any of your dangerous (by their very definition) "registered" pesticide POISONS on television any time you wish.
Respectfully, Stephen L. Tvedten
The tension is unbearable......
Stayed tuned. As of December
18, 1999, Mr. Gray has not responded to Mr. Tvedten or us.
Will he respond? or will we have another
one of those nice visits from the Enforcement arm of the DPR??? (with
them chanting... I am only following orders)
Given the historical records on any
governmental or petrochemical official adequately responding to a request
to come out in the spot light and discuss the facts... we should be pretty
safe.
And now we wait???
We have complied with the censorship of the DPR.... But who is next?
Post Script (5/13/2000): Well we finally found out why Mr. Gray was probably to busy to write back. He is involved in keeping the EPA in line and making sure the Malathion stays registered and in use. Read this for more information
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