Laura's old posts - informational

Posted by Critterlady on October 11, 2004 at 19:39:40:

This was in response to a poster who was angry with her doctor and planned to go back to see him to tell him off:
First of all, I'm with you on not giving a damn about hurting their feelings. But that's not the point. You want the best advice you can get from the SOB so you want to kiss his you-know-what. You don't want him to recognize that you have any doubt in his skills or abilities. You've heard the old saying that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Well, here's your chance to find out how true that old saying is. You let him see your disdain, you won't get any cooperation. So go into that office with knowledge tucked under your belt, but acting like you've read this and you've read that and you want to know what his dear sweet little opinion is? And if he mentions Lindane you want to be ready to say dear me, from what I've read that stuff's really dangerous. Is there some reason you would prescribe that over the permethrin? From everything I've read, it seems like the permethrin is just as effective, but far less dangerous. (if he seems to be a particularly liberal doctor you may want to jump right in with a request for Ivermectin.) I'm talking to you here like you know what I'm talking about. I'm assuming you've read most or all of this message board and have a good handle on your options. If you don't or haven't, do so. But be careful how you approach the doc. Don't want to offend him. If you've read this board, you and I both know that you probably already know more than he does about the subject of scabies. He's got the piece of paper though, so you must appear, at least, to defer to him. I'm sorry my memory is so poor but I can't remember if this was the same doctor who suggested the 1%. If so, run in the opposite direction, unless he diagnosed skin lice (which shouldn't cause the raised bumps.)
If you know for sure you've got scabies, and want to treat without a doctor (I would not recommend this because of your odd presentation)you can get these pesticides online from Canadian pharmacies.
But I think you should go to the doctor and request scrapings if he doesn't first suggest it. Remember, a positive ID is that: a definite, positive ID. However, if he does scrapings and does not find evidence of scabies that could mean you don't have scabies. Or it could simply mean he didn't scrape where there was actual evidence of scabies. It's not a conclusive negative ID.
This was to a poster who questioned his beer drinking and sexual encounters while having scabies: First, you've got to get a positive diagnosis. You better pray for scabies. As bad as scabies can be, some of the other infestations are far more insidious. While you're waiting, you need to be building up your immune system and organs, taking really good care of the body overall. You're getting ready to coat your body in toxic waste. You want to be in optimal condition to withstand this onslaught. Meanwhile, you've got to assume you're contagious. So go easy on the brew, avoid contact with others. Especially sexual.
When you treat, you will also have to do a very thorough cleaning regimen, which you can learn about on this board. It is an important part of the treatment. Without the cleaning, you'll probably just reinfest yourself with critters that are lying about.
A week later you will treat and clean again.
You will now be into post scabies. Some people have little trouble with post scabies, probably due to having their bodies in better shape. Hence my advice to clean up your act between now and then. Some of us have a terrible time with post scabies. You'll have new bumps popping out and other, odd intense itching. You probably won't be interested in sex because who wants to explain all these herpes-looking sores to somebody. But if you happen not to get the post scabies mess, yes, you're considered non-contagious 24 hours following treatment. People on this board have reported going into far worse episodes of post scabies symptoms when drinking, however. So you'd probably be best to avoid the drinking until all this is over. That will be your call of course, but beware those who went before you! Again please read, read, read. If you're familiar with what's happened to others, you can make much better decisions for yourself.

The cleaning regimen will take effect at the time of treatment. It's good that you have everything clean now. The cleaner the better. But the real test comes at time of treatment. The idea is to kill off everything in or under your skin and eliminate any that might be lingering around on the carpet, pillow, a book, the computer mouse, etc. They can only live a short time off the host (you or another human) so when you take the short lifespan and add it to the time of eggs hatching and babies maturing, I considered all safe by 3 or three and a half weeks. In other words, the things I couldn’t wash in hot water or freeze in the freezer got quarantined in plastic bags for 3 1/2 weeks. I bought plastic mattress and pillow covers at Wal-Mart (very cheap) because it's easier to wipe them down with a bleach solution than to try to get any critters out of the mattress. So vacuum the mattress again and zip a plastic cover on. Throw your pillows in the dryer for about 30 minutes on hot-hot and then zip a plastic cover on. Each time you clean during treatment, all surfaces that can be wiped down need to be washed with a solution of bleach and water. Some people used vinegar and water. Either would probably be okay. I just like bleach because I know it's strong. I went the extra carcinogenic mile and used Hartz Rid Flea carpet treatment on my carpets and sprayed household lice killing spray (available in the pharmacy next to the head lice kits) on every surface that couldn't be washed. Both products contain permethrin or pyrethrins.

Hopefully you will have a good dermatologist. Can your aunt, the nurse, help you with a reference?
You are going to need to probably do whatever the doctor advises you. None of us on here know the intracacies of these poisons. I don't think most doctors do, either, though.
I chose to treat myself without consulting a dermatologist. My GP had told me to use the same 1% stuff you used. What a joke. Anyway, I let 2 weeks pass between the 1% treatment and the 5% permethrin treatment. Not so much for detox purposes but because I had read a little bit about scabies becoming resistant to some of these toxins. I felt like I'd probably just strengthened my tribe with that little 1% cocktail. Don't know if this was "proper" amount of time. Just what I chose. Advice is given frequently on this board to avoid alcohol during scabies and post scabies outbreaks. Seems they said it makes the itching worse but I'm not sure if that was the reason. You might want to do some more reading on this. Mindy and Qlexa and I are all going to have to get together to tie one on some night if we ever get through the misery of our post scabies. You might want to delay your college boy I'm trashed and I'm cool partying until after you're done with this, too.
Please be careful. Read, be knowledgeable, question your doctor if anything sounds funny. Don't take his word as gospel. Use your own common sense. Read, read, read.

You need to see a dermatologist in case this is something else. Your description doesn't agree with a classic textbook case of scabies. There are lots of cases of scabies that don't agree with the traditional case, however. But, because it doesn't present with bumps AND itching, you need a definite diagnosis. I agree with Mindy. DEMAND (if he doesn't show signs of doing this) skin scrapings. They run a flat surface over your skin (blood is not drawn!) to scrape a few cells off and then look at them under a microscope. The typical diagnostic tool is 6 to 7 scrapings in different locations, usually wherever the itch is particularly bothersome. I've never heard of a case of scabies that didn't itch (that's actually the number one symptom of scabies) so I question your diagnosis.
One other thing, you'll need to do two treatments if this is scabies. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. If you think two 5% treatments on top of the 1% treatment is too much, wait a while before you do your first 5% treatment so the 1% will be out of your system. But do that second treatment and cleaning regime.
You will have fewer complications afterward if your system is in optimal condition when you treat. Baby your skin with moisturizers, eat well, sleep properly. Do whatever you need to boost your immune system. When you've read more on this board you'll understand why all of this is important. And why you ought to lay off the brewskies until this is all over.
When I first started into this thing, I was under the impression that the second treatment was recommended for killing off any eggs that had hatched since the first treatment. The more I read, however, the more I realized this isn't the case except in Ivermectin. Permethrin (and any of the other pesticides except Ivermectin) will kill the human scabies eggs along with the adults and the nymphs.
Of course you have to allow longer with the environmental "storage" of items not washed in hot water because you have to allow not only for the adults to die off, but for the eggs to hatch and then survive their lifespan off a host. But the eggs under your skin will die with the pesticide application.
A lot of people on this board believe that the eggs survive the toxins. This is a common fallacy, probably due to the fact that so many other types of mites' eggs DO survive pesticides. Fleas, for instance. You can have the best exterminator in the world come out but it won't do any good unless he comes back in a week to get the hatchlings. Ivermectin does not kill the eggs. A second treatment is always necessary with Ivermectin to get the hatchlings. The second treatment of the other poisons is for another purpose, however.
Most everyone on this board is in agreement that two treatments, 7 days apart, is standard. I noticed that the instructions on the tube of Nix I used instructed you to do one treatment followed by a second (7 days later) only if you still had signs of scabies. Some doctors prescribe this method but most prescribe the two treatments. I understand your concern about double poisoning yourself if not necessary. But let me point out to you that two treatments 7 days apart are going to be way more effective than 2 treatments 4 weeks apart.
What's she talking about? you ask. Well, if you've read down the board, you will have read posts from me, Mindy and Qlexa. We all treated around the same time. We all are experiencing the phenomenon known as post scabies. If you've read those posts, you must have been able to realize the panic in some of them. This post scabies business is so similar to active scabies that you're constantly asking yourself if you're reinfested. Confidence is at an all time low.
Like you, I too questioned doing the second treatment. At one time I considered doing a permethrin treatment followed 7 days later with a 3-day sulfur regimen. But I finally decided to follow the advice on this board, of two treatments, 7 days apart. I'm so glad now that I did. I may not have needed it. I may very well have killed off my infestation the first time around. But let me tell you something: if I had not done that second treatment, sometime in the past two months I would have been in a panic over the post scabies, convinced myself I had the bugs back because I hadn't treated the second time, and I would have seen myself back at square one, starting over with a treatment plan. And this time I would have done it right. Two treatments, 7 days apart. So in the long run, I probably would have wound up doing 3 treatments when 2 was all that was necessary (when one actually might have been all that was necessary--but you have to take into account the psychological effect it's going to have on you when you have bumps, rashes and itches afterwards and you know you didn't do that second treatment!)
I would strongly advise the second treatment, for psychological reasons more than anything. You want to have strong confidence that you've killed off everything.
I also want to comment that if you didn't itch last night, it probably was some sort of coincidence. You will itch at night in post scabies. You will itch in the daytime. You simply shouldn't itch worse in the nighttime than you do in the daytime.
Although your husband showed no symptoms of active scabies, he needs to be prepared for the possibility that he might suffer post scabies symptoms. Please read this board, as far as you can, to learn what to expect. It's really very bizarre.
Good luck to you.
Another reason for two treatments (and this goes along with the psychological need to feel confident you've killed your infestation) is because when you've got scabies you are itching and scratching like a fool. (no, duh.) So you've applied cream to your body. Then you can't help but scratch here and there. This was something that never occurred to me when I was making my plan of attack but the night I first treated I was petrified that I was going to scratch enough off during the night to have "bald" spots. This had a lot to do with me going on and applying a second treatment a week later.
I also made a lot of mistakes. Everyone does. I forgot to put my keychain in the freezer overnight. Cleaned the car real good but jumped in it the next morning and started the ignition before I realized I'd done nothing about my keys. The sandals I wear to walk the dog, same thing. Had put my real shoes in the freezer but forgot about the sandals until I came in the next morning after walking the dog. Put my stick deoderant in the freezer. Took a shower the next morning. As usual, applied deoderant and powder. AArrgghh! The powder puff. (a funny aside--the next week, treatment number two, I definitely remembered to freeze the powder puff. After taking the shower and powdering myself it occurred to me that I probably had critters in the powder container as well.) Anyway, my point being that with every mistake you catch yourself making, and with every place you scratch, you will worry that you left yourself vulnerable. So if you suffer post scabies like I have, somewhere along the line that worry will haunt you until you do something about it. In a perfect textbook world, one treatment of permethrin 5% would adequately kill off the infestation. But can you promise yourself you won't scratch? Can you be sure you'll do every single thing you need to do to your environment?
I read somewhere on this board a long time ago, I believe it might have been one of Jenny's posts, that the statistics are like so:
When applied as directed, 80% of the people using this product will be successful with one treatment of permethrin 5%. The 20% who won't be successful will be due to human error. (in other words not applying behind your knee, or scratching off a spot or missing something in your environment.) The second treatment raises the percentage to 90. A worthwhile jump. But from that point on, with each additional treatment the percentage only went up a point or so. When it hit 95 or 96%, it flattened out. Because human error being what it is, it will always be there. From everything I've read, the risk factor is outweighed by the benefit on the two treatments. But when you start adding additional treatments, the risk factor climbs considerably. So you want to keep your treatments down to two.
I don't know if this makes sense to someone who hasn't "been there, done that" but I guarantee you if you do one treatment on November first, somewhere around November twenty fifth you're going to be starting over, this time convinced you'll do it right. Meaning two treatments in 7 days. So there you are, three treatments in a month's time. Better to do the two to start with and then sit back like I'm doing now, fascinated with the continuation of what could easily be described as active scabies, but confident in the knowledge that this must be post scabies. No way did those bugs survive all that I threw their way.
This response was to a poster who reported her child was being taught in school that scabies is an STD: Here's an example of the old saying, "a little information is a dangerous thing." Yes, scabies can be transmitted sexually and probably a whole lot of people are infected in that manner. But that's not the whole story. They can be picked up in so many totally innocent ways. The sad thing about these kids being taught it's an STD is that if any of them have it, there's now that "SEX" stigma attached to it. What sixth or seventh grader's gonna tell anyone he or she has scabies if the anyone is gonna think they got it by having sex? If the kid thinks that's the way you get it, and he suspects he has it, do you suppose he's going to tell his old suspicious mother? or the school nurse? So yeah, scabies can be transmitted by sexual encounter but it can also be transmitted by a book in the school library. Not accurate to refer to it as an STD, as if that were the only way one could contract it.
You have a lot of reading to do. Please do not decide on a mode of treatment or jump into anything (especially the pesticides) without first educating yourself completely on the various treatments and what to expect with each. As Jenny posted, make certain your diagnosis before you do anything.
You will learn more from reading this board (very time consuming but worthwhile) than from doing any other type of research, but you also need to search out the Internet. A lot of conflicting information but it's fairly easy to weed out the BS.

Sulfur is not used for scabies SYMPTOMS. It will not relieve the itch. It is used as a treatment regimen and many of us use it to dry up the post scabies bumps and sores. But do not expect it to relieve your symptoms.

Please read before you do anything. I spent two weeks researching before I treated. It was the longest and most miserable two weeks of my life. But it was one of the best moves I've ever made in my life. By the time I treated I was confident of my diagnosis, confident of my plan of attack, and the past two months of the weirdo post scabies has been a little easier on me than on some of my fellow treaters here on the board who treated the same week. Maybe because my confidence level was higher. Read until you drop. Then get up and read some more. Good luck!
If it's scabies, you need to figure out who keeps reinfecting you. If it's another type of mite, you have the difficult job ahead of you of determining where it's coming from. Read Critterlady's posts. She often describes mites coming through electric circuits, heat and a.c. vents, etc. Could be a simple critter with mites living on the roof of your building or in shrubs around the foundation of your building. Anyway, determine what type of infestation, get rid of the host (unless of course it's human in which case you don't need to call out a hit, just get yourself away from this person) and when (and only when) you're confident the host is removed, re-treat using all the cleaning regimen and other precautions you used as a first timer.

This response to a poster who had treated multiple times with Permethrin and insisted it was an ineffective treatment:
The entire scabies population is growing tougher, reproducing in circumstances before thought impossible, etc. as a direct result of developing resistance to the pesticides. Scientist fear that somewhere in the future (maybe the near future) we will see the necessity for even stronger pesticides to be able to wipe out an infestation. That time has not come yet, however, and you're using one of the most effective treatments there is. Or should I say overusing. I find it hard to believe that your personal bugs have developed this type of resistance. I think it's far more likely you're killing them off and getting reinfested. Or, possibly you're treating for the wrong kind of critter. Your diagnosis is crucial. Please see another derm if necessary. Make sure you get skin scrapings. Please don't treat again until you have that positive ID. Without the positive ID of scabies, suspect other types of mites. Good luck!

This response was to a poster whose mother had visited and after returning home the poster found out her mother had scabies symptoms (not a definite diagnosis) and she (the poster) had been exposed but didn’t yet show signs of an infestation:
Oh, I almost forgot. There IS a cheap, non-toxic cure in use. In use since early Roman times. Sometimes the old remedies are the best, too. The worst this will do is dry you out. Read about sulfur ointment on this board. Must be 10%. Must be used round the clock for several days. Is messy and smelly but super cheap, effective and best of all non toxic.
I suggest you do as Mindy says and see a dermatologist, but not until you show signs of infestation. Do the cleaning routine, keep the place clean, shower more frequently than usual and maybe you'll be lucky. I do not recommend treating for scabies when you don't even know if you've got them, so what I am about to tell you is for informational purposes only, but you do not need to get a prescription for the proper creams as they can be purchased online. This is recommended only in a case where you are absolutely 100 percent sure you've got scabies. Not just exposed to scabies, but have actually contracted critters. There's a 4 to 6 week incubation period so if you start breaking out in that time frame, and your mother has already been positively diagnosed with scabies, you would be safe to assume (if your symptoms are scabies symptoms) that you got them from her. My situation was similar and I self-diagnosed. Wouldn't recommend it for anyone not 100% sure, though. You can buy Sulfur8, a hair conditioning product in the African-American hair care products display almost everywhere. This is a very low sulfur content product. It's gooey and greasy but I suggest you wear it on your skin at all times at home until you've done the complete scabies cleaning routine which you can read about in depth on this board. Do the entire thing, as if you had just treated for scabies and then wait out the 4 to 6 weeks. You don't need to use the Sulfur8 as a repellant once you've finished the cleaning process, but I'd certainly use it for now. Scabies don't like sulfur and, as Mindy said, there are sulfur treatments you can be researching. You don't need to treat now, but you need to repel. Therefore the 2% sulfur product, Sulfur8. This gives you a warning period though. Once the cleaning is over, start reading more and more on this board and become educated on what to look for, different treatment options, the whole 9 yards so if you get it you will be prepared and already will know what you want to use. So many people come to this board only after they've gotten scabies, gone to a doctor and gotten a prescription for some harsh pesticide they later announce they wouldn't have used if they'd known better at the onset. You have the distinct advantage of forewarning so use this time to your advantage. Hopefully, it will be a waste of time and energy and you won't need to use your knowledge. But if you do get scabies, you'll be much better equipped to handle the infestation than most people are, because you'll have knowledge and you will be empowered. Everything you need to know, including where to get these products, is on this board. Good luck
When you talk with the pediatrician, tell him or her not only exactly what you've done with the child in question but also what you've been doing environmentally. The diarrhea could be a reaction to the pesticide, could be a reaction to some household cleaning product you're using. Could be a reaction to fumes on the air from something you used on another family member. So don't leave any details out.
We certainly don't mean to scare you, but we intend to shake you up a little so you'll stop and educate yourself before you do any further damage to any of your family. This stuff is not harmless. It's also not going to cause the kind of overdose poisoning you seem to be picturing in your mind. The damage people suffer from these pesticides (and from overuse of the pesticides) is permanent skin damage. Lifelong excema or dermatitis problems. Skin is an organ. So we're talking organ damage. Advice is given on this board to help you do things in a manner that will allow you to kill off your infestation, but doing as little damage to your organs as possible.
Once you've treated everyone in the family (they should all be treated at the same time so you need to get that youngest child treated pronto or she will reinfest the rest of you) and done the proper cleaning regimen, you must assume you've killed off your infestation and anything you suffer is post scabies. There are minor differences between active scabies and post scabies, but they are so minor that most of us in post scabies have frequent episodes of assuming we're reinfested. If you had a bad infestation, in active scabies you itched much worse at night than in the daytime. In post scabies you still will itch at night, but it will be no worse than in the daytime. In active scabies your first symptom is an itch. You scratch and a rash, sore, or bump of some sort pops up in that location. The sore or bump or rash stays for what seems like forever. Meanwhile, new places pop out on your body. Left untreated, you eventually get covered in these horrible sores. The old ones remain as new ones pop out. In post scabies you will find the same types of bumps, sores and rashes along with new kinds! But they will fade away within a week or 10 days. Of course new ones keep coming, so you stay freaked out, but as long as some keep going, you're in post scabies. Again, my strongest suggestion to you is to read. It IS scary at first, but you need to assimilate all this information and figure out what will work best for you and your family. You can do this with confidence when you've read lots of other people's success stories and also the failure stories. Education is the key to scabies eradication. Doctors are convenient, but you can't rely on them to get you through this. That's why there are so many of us on this message board. We're all helping each other. Welcome aboard, and don't hesitate to keep posting and asking questions.
I'm not suggesting people discard the medical profession and take their health care totally into their own hands; just that it's their bodies that will be affected by what these doctors casually suggest and prescribe, not the doctor's. Too many folks blindly accept the medical profession as all-knowing (you were one of them!) without researching as if the doctor's opinion were only that, an opinion. Throughout my cancer ordeal I learned that it's imperative we take control of our own health decisions and utilize the medical profession in any ways useful, but not blindly follow anything we're told. After all, you can go to three different doctors with the same ailment and you'll usually get three different treatment options for the same diagnosis. And that's assuming all 3 diagnose the same thing!
When I ordered the Nix (Permethrin 5%) I got it in 9 days. Faster than I got the shipment of Pomada de Azufre from California, and I didn't think that took terribly long. Personally, I don't consider Canada a whacky country with an "anything goes" attitude. They are looser than the U.S. on some things, most of which, in my opinion, should be handled more loosely.
This is an example. I have never seen the Permethrin 5% OTC but someone posted on here around the first of the year that he had bought it OTC. Of course he may have been in Canada for all I know!

I do not encourage anyone to have that "I want to treat right now" attitude because that's just asking to treat with one product, do a little more research and realize you probably should have treated with something different. Any newcomers reading this post: although most of the products discussed among us here on the board are easily and readily available to you either OTC or online, please don't rush into any type of treatment. I know you're suffering. We've all been where you've been. But if you'll take a few extra days of suffering and read as much as you can on this board and educate yourself to all aspects of the dreaded scabies, you'll be in much better shape to plan your attack and carry it out successfully than if you jump into the first treatment plan that sounds good to you. After I'd read for two evenings I went shopping for products. I guess it was lucky for me, but nothing was available in my area. So after I read a third evening I started ordering online. I was convinced I wanted to treat with sulfur so I ordered sulfur ointment. But before it arrived I decided I wanted to treat with Ivermectin. The expense was outrageous so I had to regroup. After two weeks of reading the entire board, researching the Internet and talking to people, I decided on Permethrin 5%. Not recommending or criticizing this product. What's right for me may not be right for you and vice versa. My point is that the more I read, the more I changed my mind. I was lucky that I had to wait for delivery of supplies. It allowed me that extra time to research! So I urge anyone just getting into this nightmare to slow down and read before you do anything other than take Benadryl at night. Make an informed decision. Don't rush into anything. Once you've read, you'll discover that you probably know more about scabies than any dermatologist (that's not arrogantly saying you know more than a dermatologist--just you're an expert on this one facet of his practice) and you have to approach his advice and prescriptions with that in mind. Look how many people are on this board with Lindane sitting on their shelf in the bathroom. Why is that? Because, by the time they were given the Lindane by a doctor, they had researched and decided for themselves that they'd like to find a safer way to eradicate their infestation. There are people on this board who were prescribed Permethrin 5% who, after reading the board, decided it was too harsh for them and chose to go the sulfur route. It's an individual decision as it should be. The doctor and his knowledge are a tool. But certainly not the only tool. And often not even a useful tool. Occasionally, a harmful tool!!!
And many of us here on the board used the 1% head lice treatments on our bodies due to idiot physician input and know that it doesn't kill off an under the skin infestation. So that would be putting pesticide (granted, milder than the 5% but poison nonetheless) on our heads for no purpose. Unless we had head lice too! The sulfur was a much better choice.
The following post doesn’t address the use of Ivermectin because it is in response to a poster who was comparing Permethrin, Malathion and Lindane. Ivermectin is considered to be relatively safe (as safe as permethrin) and equally effective as Permethrin 5%.:

It's (Perm 5%) probably the safest effective pesticide you can use for scabies. Much less dangerous than Lindane and Malathion. Repeat: safest effective pesticide. Pesticides are all dangerous, all carcinogenic. This product is much safer than the other two so be thankful this is what you used. Lindane seems to be the most commonly prescribed pesticide for scabies and it's horribly dangerous, and not just to pregnant women!

The tunnels are often visible to the naked eye. Seems like more people report having them than not.

I don't know why, but scabies rarely go above the neck except in babies, the elderly and the immuno-compromised. However, I read somewhere that if your infestation is left untreated long enough and it gets bad enough, they will eventually go everywhere. I believe this is true because mine got worse and worse over time. More rashes, more sores, more bumps. Spread across my torso, onto my back, onto my arms & legs, then started going higher. Up to my collarbone in the front, up to my hairline in the back. If I'd not treated when I did I have no doubt they eventually would have moved on up onto my scalp and face. But I had scabies for a long time before I figured out what I had (my idiot doctor said stress-induced hives.)

The pesticide is a toxin--poison--and it's not a good idea to put it on your head and have it absorbed into your brain. Sulfur can be applied to your head, assuming you've done a test patch and you show no signs of allergies. But it's safer to avoid putting the pesticides on your face and head, although there are a lot of people on this board who probably will disagree with me. This was the one thing I couldn't get a decent feel for before I treated. Right up until the evening I treated, I couldn't decide whether or not to put the Permethrin 5% on my scalp and neck. Several people advised me that I wouldn't wipe out my infestation if I didn't and just as many advised me of the potential damage. I decided not to take the risk. I figured if necessary, I could always re-treat a few months down the road if I wasn't successful but I don't know where Oz is or where else I'd find a new brain.

I don't know why the scabies supposedly stay below the neck. But this seems to be an accepted fact. With the exceptions I mention above. (Referring to babies, the elderly and the immuno-compromised.)

A petroleum based 10% sulfur ointment can be purchased online from www.germa-drugs.com. Search their site for sulfur. It's their house brand of sulfur ointment. You can buy a nicer-to-use product called Pomada de Azufre. It's in more of a hand lotion type of base. Some folks have found it in Wal-Marts and even in grocery stores in parts of the country where there are large Hispanic populations. I couldn't find it anywhere here so I ordered it online from a California company www.herbsofmexico.com. I paid $5.50 per jar and those buying it in Wal-Mart pay only about half that. You'd probably need one jar for an overall treatment, and you have to treat a total of at least six days, so be sure to buy at least 6 jars of either product per adult to be treated. Do not use this without fully understanding the sulfur treatment program as described elsewhere on this message board. This product is not toxic, but is extremely drying and as Critterlady found out just this week, can cause secondary infections and/or excema. Sorry to sound so negative, but you must understand there's a downside to almost everything having to do with these damned scabies. So please don't do anything or use anything until you fully understand what you're getting into. You've already damaged your skin a lot and even this sulfur routine probably isn't a good idea until you've given your skin several weeks to heal and recuperate. I can't remember now when you did those two treatments but it seems to me it was just within the last couple of weeks. After you've used any of the pesticides, it is recommended that you wait several months before you re-treat with a pesticide. I don't believe you need to wait that long before using sulfur, but you should wait long enough to know exactly what kind of damage your skin underwent in the pesticide treatment you've already done, and allow enough time for that damage to show up, and then heal. Today is my 8-week mark from my first treatment (obviously the 7-week mark from my second treatment) and I am still shedding skin that was grossly affected by the permethrin. I have used some sulfur in post scabies, but I have very oily skin. Isn't recommended for those with dry to normal skin. Not until you've healed.

Mattress--take off all bedding and wash the linens in hot, hot water and leave in hot dryer at least 25 minutes. This includes mattress pads which I would then pack up until all this is over with–one less thing to wash daily. Vacuum mattress. Some people consider that enough and then cover the mattress with a cheap plastic cover like you can get in discount stores. I went the extra carcinogenic mile and sprayed home lice control spray (it's .5% permethrin and available on pharmacy shelves next to the head lice kits--brand names run about $6, generics about a buck cheaper) on the mattress, letting it dry completely before covering it with plastic. Pillows go in dryer and then in plastic covers. You can then wipe these down daily with a bleach solution when you do the bedding. I used the home lice control spray on upholstered furniture, the seats in my car, anything I couldn't wash (after vacuuming, of course.) I also used Hartz Rid Flea carpet powder on the carpets. Available in grocery stores. We have a lot of flying insects and use flying insect spray frequently for flies & mosquitoes. Changed brands to Hot Shot Flying Insect Spray because the main killer ingredient in it is pyrethrins which is a scabies killer. Changed my dog's heartworm preventive to one that has Ivermectin in it. Doesn't kill quite as many of the various types of worms that the other stuff kills, but Ivermectin kills scabies! Just made a lot of minor (temporary) changes in the way I do things around the house. All surfaces get bleach. Few did before. If it can't be bleached, it gets spritzed with the home lice control spray. I've been through 5 or 6 cans of that stuff now. I'm still using the carpet powder every 2 weeks. I'm sticking with the Hot Shot instead of what we used to use. I use sulfur soap simply because I discovered it because of scabies and I love it. But even if I didn't love it (I have oily skin and it's drying) I'd be using some sulfur product from time to time as a repellant. Paranoid? You bet. You will be too by the time this is over. Best of luck to you. Come back with other questions when you've got them.

I missed a lot of work in order to do this right, but now I'm glad I took that route. The post scabies is almost worse than the active scabies, because you're questioning yourself constantly. If the cleaning wasn't top notch you're going to question, did I reinfest because I didn't clean that rug well enough? I think I got through post scabies better than most because I had that confidence factor going for me. I knew I'd done everything within my control to eradicate my bugs. And I'd done it all well and methodically. That confidance level was important these past two months.
Same comments for him go for you too. You've both grossly overtreated and apparently haven't found your host. They don't keep coming back if you've successfully eradicated your infestation unless the person or animal who's carrying these things is still in your life. Or unless you did a sloppy environmental cleaning job. Permethrin 5% (which is what's in your Elimite) is an effective scabicide. Ivermectin is another. Neither is more effective than the other. The Ivermectin has advantages (especially in the human pill form you describe) but should not be used on top of the other pesticides. Have you read about post scabies? That's when people are experiencing what comes naturally after scabies but because they don't know about post scabies, they assume they've "got 'em back." You have two choices, in my opinion. You can blindly keep poisoning yourself, which you most likely will come to regret for the rest of your life while you battle secondary infections and infestations brought on by the overtreatment, or you can spend some time now reading this entire board and get the big picture on the nightmare called scabies. You are using poisons, toxins, carcinogens, what words can I use to make you take notice? Nuclear waste, radioactive, glow in the dark? Stop this irresponsible behavior now and get a grip! We all know you're suffering; we've all been there. But you're overtreating, and doing so without even a twinkling of an idea what you're doing to yourself. Norwegian scabies? Whole other ballpark. Read, read, read. With knowledge you will begin to understand what you did wrong if, indeed, you did anything wrong. I'm betting your infestation is long dead and you're suffering post scabies just like I am. Either way, you shouldn't be re-treating at this point. Your skin must heal inbetween treatments. Takes several months. Please read before doing anything more.

I'm real happy you did this without a doctor's bill or a prescription involved because this way you're only out thirteen bucks. Any way you look at it, you were into post scabies and you repoisoned yourself needlessly. Two treatments of permethrin 5% (and I believe that's what Elimite is) would do 'em all in. As long as everyone in the household was treated and you did the cleaning routine, you were suffering from post scabies. And there's no medicine to treat that, only time and babying your skin will get your skin healed. Meanwhile you itch.

You say you're 2 weeks past the first treatment. I'm assuming you did the second treatment a week ago. Correct? If so, you've killed those bugs. If everyone in the household was treated and all the cleaning routine was done, you can rest assured you're in post scabies. No sense in doing scrapings at this point. If a stray bug remained, it would be like the proverbial needle in the haystack trying to locate him or her. Not much chance that stray bug's going to be where the doc scrapes.

There's no rhyme nor reason to the post scabies. Some people don't get any reaction at all. Some people on get a little of the post scabies mess. Others suffer pretty bad. Still others are miserable. If you've done your reading on this board, you know the post scabies is caused by two distinctly different things. One is an allergic reaction to the pesticides or sulfur or whatever harsh product you used on your skin that dried it all up and made your youthful skin look like that of a 120-year old......oh, that's my skin, not yours. The other is the same allergic reaction you were having during active scabies: the allergic reaction to the foreign bodies and eggs and scabies feces under your skin. That reaction is going to continue until you're through shedding enough layers of skin that the crap sheds off with the old skin. They say the average is 4 to 6 weeks but many people suffer it much longer. Mindy, Qlexa and I have been going through this together. Today is my 8 week anniversary. Mindy's been in this thing longer than me, Qlexa a shorter period of time. We're all three winding down, but not totally done with it yet. So it takes a while. You will notice improvement, but it will be slow. And from time to time it will get a little worse again and then better again. Freaky stuff. If you treat again, you will not only be repoisoning your family but you will be extending the healing time. The more damage, the longer it's going to take. Best thing to do for now is the tepid shower thing with lots of non-allergenic moistuizers. Drink lots of water. Maybe take Benadryl at night. Lots of posters mention that, although I didn't find it made any difference. Sarna lotion was a Godsend for me in post scabies. Grossly expensive. Used it only where I itched. Used Suave oatmeal non-allergenic lotion (cheap) everywhere else. I'm confused and I've made a lot of errors on this board tonight so please bear with my question. Are you the lady who posted earlier with the young child who has not been treated? If so, you need to concentrate on getting that child treated ASAP and keeping a repellant form of sulfur on everyone else until all have been treated. Continue the cleaning regimen until all have been treated. You may want to use some sulfur on all of you from time to time, maybe in a treatment mode for 3 nights after the youngest is treated, just on the offchance you've picked something back up from her. Right now, the big thing for the rest of you should be repelling the bugs. And please don't consider re-treating until you've healed, even if you are reinfested. It takes several months for your skin to heal enough to handle pesticides again. Depending on how badly your skin was damaged by the perm, you can do a sulfur treatment sooner. Right now, just repel and get that youngest one treated. And if I've got you confused with someone else, please forgive me.
This is a perfect example of why so many of us here on this message board have little use for doctors in this scabies mess. What this doctor has done to you and your family, by avoiding treating the little one, is to put all of you in the position of having treated, possibly becoming reinfested, and now you can't safely re-treat with pesticides anyway for a while. He'll probably be the first one to tell you to get some more toxin on your skin. These doctors don't have to live with the problems they create by their indiscriminate prescriptions of poisons. Please get that child treated. Get some of that sulfur ointment--pay extra for overnight delivery--and give her a sulfur treatment. That's the recommended treatment for pregnant women and small babies anyway. You leave the sulfur ointment on around the clock for 3 days and nights (obviously you bathe and reapply) then you let the skin rest for 3 days and nights (applying lots of moisturizers) and then you do another 3 day and night treatment. The sooner she's treated, the less chance of you all being reinfested. But if you do take her to a doctor, please try another doctor. You've got one of the ones who doesn't know squat about scabies. There are a lot like him. If you pick another doc, you've got a 50-50 chance of getting a better one! Good luck.
That's why we keep coming back. I'm not sure how I would have survived this if I hadn't found this board. I do know I eventually would have gone to a dermatologist and I would have been prescribed Lindane. And knowing my own type of personality, I feel sure (because I wouldn't have known how dangerous it was) I would have re-treated when the crap remained after treatment. I haven't enjoyed the past few months, but every day I have to remind myself that it could have been a whole lot worse if I hadn't found this board. So my way of paying back is to spend a couple of hours every day on here and trying to keep others, like you, from making those kinds of mistakes. Thanks for being appreciative. And remember, when all this is behind you and seems like just a bad nightmare you had, you can come back and take over from me!

In active scabies your itch at night is unbearable. In post scabies you still itch at night, but no worse than in the daytime. When you break out with active scabies it usually works like so: you itch, you scratch the place, you break out with a sore, bump or a rash. This place remains for what seems like forever. Meanwhile, other such places pop up from time to time. Same thing happens in post scabies except you don't always itch where there are bumps and you don't always get bumps where you itch. And (this is the biggie) the sores/rashes/bumps go away after a short while, sometimes a few days, sometimes as long as 10 days. But they go away. Of course new ones are popping up so it's not like you're free of sores, but you can watch them come and go and feel relatively confident you're on the mend. Just doesn't seem like it as you're itching and scratching!!!
Sounds to me like a simple post scabies slightly allergic reaction to the pesticide. Avoid the borax. I don't know anything about the other products you mention but I'd avoid anything after treatment (especially when there's visible skin damage such as you have) other than non-allergenic moisturizers, non-allergenic soaps, tepid water, pat downs (as opposed to drying by rubbing), maybe a little Benadryl for the itch. Baby your skin. Don't treat anything until you've healed. You're only irritating your skin further. I found Sarna lotion (obscenely expensive) to be great for areas of itch post scabies. Killed two birds with one stone, moisturized and killed the itch for a while. Used Suave (cheap) oatmeal non-allergenic lotion everywhere else. Skin regenerates and as long as you don't do too much damage (plenty of people on this board have done too much), you should be able to heal completely. But stop using "treatments" now.
This was a response to a poster whose dermatologist had treated all the adults in the house with Permethrin 5% but not their child. She asked a series of questions:
Unless you have a heavy Hispanic population where you live, you probably won't be able to find any sulfur products other than Sulfur8 in any of your stores. That's why I gave you online addresses. Have you done your reading on the sulfur regimen? If so, you know people mix their own. That's why I mentioned Germa Drugs has powdered sulfur. You need to try to use the 10% for the proper treatment. If you mix your own, and use a lesser percentage solution, you'll have to use it for a much longer round the clock period of time. One poster mixed it at about 4% as I recall with Aloe Vera gel and used it for two weeks constantly. This is not recommended, however, unless the person simply can't take the 10%. This child has been using the 12 to 15% product, so should be able to easily shift to the 10% product. If you see signs of excessive damage (like a burning area) you will need to rest it a while and heal her skin before you can get on with a treatment. And you will probably have to treat the entire family again, too. This is not your fault, but you are another example of why we on this board try to emphasize to everyone reading it that you must take your time, become educated and empowered with that knowledge before taking any steps. Wrong steps can set you back. And that might be your situation in the long run.

Yes, I'm afraid the baby could have reinfested all or some of you.

Ideally, yes. Everyone should treat and at the same time. But you all have damaged skin now from the permethrin treatment so you need to let it heal before you attempt any retreating. If it was me, although this is not the optimal circumstance, I would treat the baby with sulfur ointment. Allow everyone a two-month healing period, during which time you will determine if you're in post scabies or if you still have an infestation. Then, after the skin has recuperated on everyone, if anyone in the household seems to have active scabies, everyone should re-treat at the same time. If the skin has healed sufficiently, those who want to could re-treat with the perm but personally, after 2 treatments of Permethrin, I'd stick with the sulfur at least for several months. This is why I'm angry with your doctor for not treating everyone. He's another idiot doctor to add to our lists. He's caused you and your family a lot more inconvenience, if nothing else, than was necessary.

when you get ready to treat the others with sulfur (please, not now) you need to test a patch of skin, preferably the inside of the lower arm, for 24 hours watching for a bad reaction. If none, use the sulfur on them. Ten percent. I wouldn't advise the lower percentage for the baby unless she reacts. She's not a tiny newborn.

Husband/dad no symptoms. Treated with Perm. Should they treat again? Again, ideally, yes. Some men (my husband was one) get very stubborn about treating for something they don't seem to have. Really need to treat everyone in household at same time. NOT NOW. Give your skin a rest first and baby it to heal it.

How to apply ointment to scalp? You've obviously never changed the color of your hair and had to do "root jobs." You get a rat-tailed comb and part the hair every 1/2 inch or so and apply it down that part. Do your head in quadrants. Then part every 1/4 to 1/2 inch within the quadrant. Keep other quadrants out of the way with clips.

The sulfur is safe for the breast-feeding mom. You'll need to wash the breasts very well before breast feeding, and then reapply. Don't forget to reapply to hands every time they're washed, too.

You ask questions that indicate you haven't followed my advice and read the sulfur posts on this board. I promise you that you'll screw up again if you jump into this, based on these little bits of advice in the answers to your questions. You need to have the big picture. Right now, getting these answers, you think you've got the big picture. You're wrong. Please do a lot of reading.
Yay! You found it at Wal-Mart. Is it the Pomada de Azufre? Best stuff you could have found! Nice texture, goes on well. And you paid half as much for it as I had to!!! Congratulations. Glad you didn't dilute it. Hope you bought lots of it.

The idea of once at night IS a 24-hour treatment. They don't wash it off the next morning. They reapply when the child has a bath daily. (nightly) By the way, you don't need to worry about "a thin layer." You want to put it on generously, so nothing is missed. And this is a child who's been dealing with a heavier solution so the 10% is not going to cause problems. You really don't need to do the patch test on her either. She's already proven she could handle the 12 to 15% solution so you know she can handle sulfur.

Also, it's accepted principle on this board to treat with sulfur 3 on, 3 off, 3 on and sometimes, just for good measure, an additional 3 off and 1 on.

There are so many various rashes/sores/bumps in active scabies. I had hives-like rashes, chicken pox type bumps and poison ivy type rashes/bumps. The poison ivy type, just like poison ivy, became encrusted. The hives type, just like hives, were more welt-like without any type of crusting. The chicken pox type bumps became encrusted, as chicken pox does. I scratched all of them unmercifully. One poster a long time ago tried to say that undisciplined scratching caused the crusted rashes but I was an undisciplined scratcher all over my body but only the poison ivy type rashes and chicken pox type rashes became encrusted. After I treated the first time I got nervous that the bugs would find safe haven under the crusts. I had not scratched (difficult, but I managed) for 6 or 8 hours prior to treating, as I was afraid the permethrin would burn on the places recently scratched. With that first treatment I discovered the stuff didn't burn at all. So with the second treatment I intentionally scratched everything real good just prior to treating. I scratched and then took a shower and scrubbed with a stiff bristled long handled bath brush. I made sure all the crusted spots were wide open. When I treated (that second time) there were no crusts. Of course they immediately crusted up again, but after I'd applied the cream. That's why (and only why) I felt confident afterward I'd really gotten everything.

So no need to worry about treating again and overtreating. Do not panic and then misinterpret what you have read. If you did everything as you should, you can rest assured you have killed your infestation and are in post scabies. It's only logical that the more people involved in the infestation, the more chance there is that someone didn't cover himself properly with the ointment. But if you were careful, and all steps were taken properly, you should not be worried that you have a reinfestation.

Norwegian Scabies is relatively rare, found usually in nursing homes, homes for the mentally incompetent and among those with immune system failures. Only the immuno compromised will have Norwegian scabies. Again, you're misinterpreting what you read. Norwegian scabies is found in a person whose immune system is not working properly. The immune system does not send out histamines to make the victim itch. The victim, not itching, is unaware of the scabies. The scabies multiply wildly but don't particularly bother the patient. So you've got somebody lying here in a bed, covered with bumps or rashes, but not complaining about it. Might not even have bumps and rashes, since the patient isn’t itching and scratching. Doubt this is your son.

You will never get a grip on your problem and solve it if you do not chill out and become objective and practical. Please take a deep breath, read and gain knowledge. Sometimes it seems like a lot of information to take in, but with time the whole picture will come together. Panic will do nothing but set you back. And maybe cause you to make mistakes. So slow down.

You stop the cleaning when you decide you've killed them all. Then you don't stop; you just slow down a little.

The more you learn, the more you can help your friend out. Do not feel badly about spreading something you didn't know you had. Let's face it, somewhere along the line we all got it from someone who (I would like to assume) didn't realize they were giving it to us. Best thing you can do now is to become educated and help others.

Tracy--you're getting your products confused. The Sulfur8 works as a repellent, but not as a treatment. The sulfur content is only 2%. Not high enough to kill scabies. I know what you mean about the goop being icky in your hair. I had the same problem with the Permethrin on my skin. I have extremely oily skin and the stuff didn't rub in on my skin like it did on my son's. So I went to bed feeling all greased up. Would be twice as bad in your hair, but that's what everyone says to do. I would think, even if you suffer a few sleepless nights, it would be worth it, to get this mess behind you. The Sulfur8 is sort of like Vaseline and I'd rather have the Pomada de Azufre on my scalp than the Sulfur8. I think the Pomada might soak right in. I don't have a major problem with it on my skin. Haven't used it in my hair, however, so don't really know. I just know the stuff is more like hand lotion than any of the other products and has a better chance of absorbing more quickly than any of the other products. The Pomada actually is a water-based soluble product rather than an ointment, which is why I like it better. And yes, you reapply everywhere after you shower. Somebody who used to post regularly, might have been Jenny, cut her hair real short in order to wear it to work! Made a statement with her hairdo and dared anyone to comment! Smart gal!
Tracy--not much of anyone on the board at this time who treated with sulfur, so I don't imagine you'll get much input from your request, but when I was researching and trying to make up my plan of attack, back in January, there were quite a few. I'm answering your questions with answers that don't come from first hand experience, but from gathering information from many people who were here in January. You simply need to think these little problems through and come up with the best solution possible. Ideally, everyone would be covered, head to toe, 24 hours a day, round the clock. We don't live in an ideal world so you do the best you can. The more concessions you make, however, the more you're going to question the efficiency of your treatment when you're into post scabies and everyone is still breaking out and itching. So figure out solutions to the best of your ability
Yes, of course, all of you will need to reapply whenever you wash anything. Further down the board I suggested to you that you change your routine (just for these few days) and shower at night. Everyone showers, everyone slops goop on the old body. Sheets get changed, everyone goes to bed. (use old sheets, this stuff is a little greasy and probably will stain a little.) If you have to hide in your house with the blinds closed for 3 days, so be it. You do whatever you have to do. You must not be suffering too badly to have all these concerns about your hair and all. Most of the people who come on here would gladly give up 3 days of their lives in order to conquer their misery. Got a barrette? Or an elastic? Stick your hair up on top of your head. You're not entering a beauty contest this weekend, are you? At this point your mantra should be "do whatever you've got to do." This too shall pass.

My eldest was a constant thumb sucker and I know what you mean. This is a concession you're going to have to make. Maybe take a glove and cut that one thumb out. Do the rest of the hand, and stick it under the glove. Whatever you've got to do. And don't apologize for asking questions. That's why we're here.
Don't use the Sulfur8 as a substitute for the 10% sulfur ointment. Sulfur8 is only a 2% sulfur solution. If you can't find a 10% sulfur ointment in your local stores (I couldn't) you can purchase Pomada de Azufre online from www.herbsofmexico.com (California company.) There's also a 10% sulfur ointment product available from www.germa-drugs.com (type in sulfur for product and you will get a screen showing their sulfur products; this 10% ointment is their house brand.) The Pomada de Azufre is a much nicer product to use. The Germa Drugs product is like Vaseline. The Pomada is a little gooey, but more like hand lotion. Would rub into your skin much better and be absorbed and hopefully you wouldn't feel sticky all night if you were using it as a full-body treatment. There's a 12 to 15% sulfur ointment available on this site, Safe2Use, but 12 to 15% is a bit high plus the consistency of this product is more like a hard stick deoderant. Would be extremely difficult to apply to your entire body since you rub your finger in the jar and then rub the stuff on your skin and you're only able to cover about a square inch with what you get out at one time. So this would take forever. No question, the Pomada product is the one to go for. See if they have overnight delivery if you're in a rush.
First,don't obsess about where you got em from. It's not a "dirty person's" problem, it's a world wide problem among all kinds of folks, and should not be an embarassment. You have scabies for 4 to 6 weeks before the itching begins so by the time you realize what you've got, it's impossible to go back and figure out where you got it from. Unless you know for a fact of contact with someone at the right time (4 to 6 weeks before you started itching) who was diagnosed with scabies, you have to operate on the idea that you may have picked one up from the handle of the shopping cart at the K-Mart. Who knows. It's not important. Save your energy for how to get rid of them and how to survive post scabies.
They're called the 7-year itch because up until the 1960s they seemed to run in 7-year cycles. About every 7 years, doctors reported a tremendous increase in the number of scabies cases they were seeing. Since then, however, the scabies have apparently developed a resistance of some sort and whatever was naturally killing them off is no longer affecting them. Scabies have been a constant problem since the 1960s with no peaks and valleys in the numbers of cases seen.
As Mindy advised, the standard treatment protocol is two treatments. Were you diagnosed by a doctor or did you self-diagnose? Your doctor was remiss if he prescribed one treatment of Elimite only and he's particularly remiss for not educating you thoroughly about post scabies.
The best thing you can do for yourself and your family right now is to take several days off from your life (or take several hours every evening for the next couple of weeks) and read everything on this board. This board was the single most valuable research tool for me when I was where you're at. There's so much to tell you, we couldn't begin to educate you in one or two posts. You need to read the experience of many others and learn what we've all been through. You probably will choose to do another treatment, even though you've passed the ideal 7-day window of opportunity. You may want to do a sulfur treatment instead of using the toxin again. You have many choices and the sooner you read about them and start to understand your options, the sooner you can make decisions and get totally rid of your infestation. You are already into post scabies. Post scabies begins with the first treatment. You may choose to assume you killed everything with that one treatment and not do another treatment. If that's the case, you will need to know every aspect of post scabies because even when you know it all, you will question whether you're suffering post scabies or if the bugs are back. This is when people do the most damage to themselves by re-treating and sometimes re-treating many times. So please read until you drop and then read some more!
There are no "stages," per se, of post scabies. They sometimes come and go, you may be "all well" for a while and then here they come again. You can have flare ups (not misery, just a little flare up of bumps) for months afterwards. Critterlady had several months of total wellness. Scabies was behind her. Or so she thought. Until two weeks ago when her scabies cemetery reappeared on her hand. Everyone seems to react a little different from the next person, too. I was 8 weeks post scabies last Wednesday. Most of mine has cleared up and the debris has risen to the top and been picked off. (sorry, I'm a scratcher and a picker even though I know better. Wasn't about to wait for that stuff to naturally shed off! I dug 'em out!) I still have horrible itching from time to time around my abdominal area. And a wild bump turns up in weird places from time to time. In active scabies, for instance, I had no problems on my legs other than small patches of rash behind my knees. But a couple of nights ago, out of the blue, I had an itch on my thigh and a big old bump popped out. Some people have very few problems with post scabies. They just put on the ointment and seem to be fine within a few days. They're rare, though. We had a poster on here a month or so ago who was told by his doctor definitively that post scabies last 3 days. What a joke.
If you treat properly (which is usually considered two treatments, 7 days apart), do the mammoth cleaning routine that's part of the treatment, and treat everyone (including pets) in the household, you are "cured" to use your term 24 hours after treatment. You are no longer contagious and your infestation is dead. They're still with you, however, under your skin, causing that allergic reaction. So essentially, you're cured but your skin isn't. And nobody can tell you how long that will take because it's such an individualized thing.
Sulfur soap works as a repellant, which may be good for you right now, especially if you didn't do the cleaning regimen. It is no substitute for a sulfur treatment, however. Read, my dear, and you will see what you did right and what you did wrong. You may want to take some additional steps when you figure out what you did wrong; you may want to take a chance that you got them all. Personal decision. Tough one, but you can do it. You've got a wealth of information at your fingertips on your computer right here at this site. Good luck to you and don't hesitate to post questions as you go along. We've all been there.
Actually, you've done better than I, Qlexa. Immediately, beginning with the first night, my nights were better than in active scabies. That's not to say they were good, just not as bad as before. Otherwise, the misery was exactly the same as in active scabies throughout my first month post scabies. I started seeing improvement (slow) my second month. By the 6-week mark I was seeing a lot of improvement. Now it seems to have leveled out again. I'm certainly not suffering, but I'm not well yet either. And it just seems to go on and on and on, about the same. But I'm a month ahead of you!! So you should be in great shape by the time you're where I am, at 8 weeks.
This is sound advice except for the length of time. The adult scabies lives off the host (you) for 4 to 7 days. So if you've got eggs you have to allow for hatch time (I read somewhere that could be a week) plus nymph stage (another week) plus adult lifespan (another week.) Three weeks seems to be the least time recommended to quarantine items. I don't know if they work this way off the host, but I've read this 3-week caution in several different places.
If you've not worn those sheepskins for the past month and they've been put away the whole time they should be okay now. If they've been "exposed" stick them in the freezer. Your Birkies made it through the wash, your sheepies will make it through the freezer!
I got my quarterly water/sewage bill a couple of weeks ago and it was exactly double what it usually is. No wonder my washer and my hot water heater crapped out!
My comment about Mindy's post and not throwing out the vacuum bags is I don't know personally how sound that advice is. All I know is I tried to follow the advice of all the others on this board who "went before me." And one of the stipulations of the cleaning regime is to toss them bags! I don't believe in messing with success so if they told me to toss, I tossed!
Tracy--I don't do this stuff the way I used to. I still do more of it than I did before scabies. Probably always will from here on out. Don't want no more of them babies in my house, oh mama. (Qlexa--there's the first line of our blues song.) I can't speak for everybody, but I think it's one of those things where you just keep doing it until you feel good about your situation. You have to feel like you've conquered the infestation. You have to feel like there ain't no way those bugs would want to live here. Pre-scabies I washed sheets once a week, blankets a couple of times a year. Now I'm washing sheets twice a week and blankets once a month. I'm still using carpet flea stuff, which I never used before. Flea & tick season is upon us and I'm more bug-aware than before. With two pets, can't hurt. I've always been weird about towels. All of us throw towels in the dirty laundry after one use so that's not a change. All of us have always worn fresh clothes each day too. But now I wash the jackets I use to walk the dog each day also. Nothing is worn more than one day. I think we're still using the vacuum about twice as much as normal pre-scabies. The rest of the cleaning routine is back to normal. But this has been a gradual thing. Not because of anything I read, just because I had to convince myself I wasn't leaving any doors open to invite them back.
You need to know that from time to time someone will post on here and say I don't have time to do all that, I'm not going to do all that, I think all that is a bunch of bunk. We usually assure this type of person that if you have to choose between treating your body and treating the environment, obviously the body is the more important choice. But we feel the environment is important, blah, blah, blah, you know the story. I've yet to see one of these people come back on here and say I told you so, I got rid of my bugs and I did it without cleaning.
The reason I'm telling you this is to make the point that you can do as much or as little as you are able to do. It's a personal decision. Critterlady usually warns people to be careful because she did so much cleaning afterward she threw her back out, and is still having problems with it. So you have to do what's right for you. You definitely need to change those sheets daily throughout the treatment period. And vacuum daily. And flea powder (with permethrin or pyrethrin) any animals. Have any dogs on an Ivermectin heartworm preventive. Bleach or vinegar with water on all surfaces daily. The whole drill. But after the treatment's over you can slow down a bit. Most of us compulsively continue simply because the treatment IS over and this is the only thing left to do that we can feel like we're proactively fighting our bugs. Like I said before, keep cleaning until you feel comfortable not cleaning.

Following almost 4 months of hiding away from civilization with contagious scabies and then leper looking post scabies, I decided today it was high time I got out into the yard and made a dent in the spring yard work. The yard looks like hell and I sure needed the exercise. The weather was beautiful so I confidently stepped out the door with my dog on her leash and tied her to the tree out front. Got my implements and started raking pine needles. Was in my own little world, humming to myself, when young couple from down the street came along with their cute little beagle on a leash. They stopped and leaned down to introduce themselves to my dog. Their dog ambled over to me, squatted and peed on my foot. That's how my day went.

Post scabies symptoms come and go. Some people have very few symptoms. Others have terrible ones. No rhyme nor reason to the coming and going.
A previously itch- and sore-free person having symptoms after a treatment could be reacting to the poison on her skin or could be reacting to dead bodies, eggs and feces under her skin. Symptoms of active scabies don't start bothering you until you've had it 4 to 6 weeks. So you could have it, not know it, treat, and then react to the debris under your skin because the 4 to 6 week period has passed and your histimines have finally kicked in. So she could be reacting to the treatment, or to actual scabies. You'll never know probably! It's an unimportant, moot point. What's important now is to baby the skin and help it heal. And avoid any further treatments for several months, no matter how convinced you may become that you've got them back. Your skin can't handle any more for a while. Can't emphasize enough how important it is to treat everyone in the household at the same time. Work with what you can and make the best of whatever your situation is.
I just went back and re-read your earlier post because I couldn't remember what you'd already done in the way of treatment. You've already done two complete treatments. Let it rest. If your skin isn't too dry, and you've been moisturizing properly since you treated, you might want to try a little sulfur ointment on the spots just to dry them up a little quicker and make them heal a tad faster. But do not put any more of that poison on your body. I used sulfur ointment in post scabies, probably just to make myself feel like I was doing something proactive when, in fact, there's not much you can do except wait it out. Do not re-treat. Can't emphasize this enough. Your infestation is dead and you are watching post scabies do exactly what they're supposed to do. I don't understand the color change you describe, but then I got what looked like chemotherapy "burns" in post scabies which nobody else has described. Seems to be wildly different from person to person.

I think they're grossly different from person to person. I'm eight and a half weeks post. Yes, I'm fat, but I doubt that makes any difference in the types of bumps and sores and rashes I get! I just think having a good layer of fat at my midsection gave them a nice deep place to go, so I expect it to take longer there than on, say, my boney collarbone to come to the surface.

I had three kinds of rashes and sores in active scabies. I've probably had ten different types in post scabies, including the hives you describe.

I didn't start getting stuff coming to the surface until probably about week 6.

I'm guessing, I don't know, but the little (they're quite small) hard nodules are very different from the scabies bumps and sores. I get a bunch of them in an area within a few days of each other. They seem to me to have "stuff" in them. Not necessarily anything I can see, but I think they are little hard balls of skin that have formed over the junk. I take my fingernails and literally dig them off. Sometimes they come off cleanly, sometimes I'll get a little dot of blood. But it's not like I've dug into my skin and pulled a chunk out. It's almost as if this is separate from the rest of my skin--like something that has worked its way to the surface to be expelled. I'll have a little mark for a few days to a week where I've picked the thing off and then the mark disappears. Mind you, I have pigment discolorations all over my body everywhere I ever had a scabies sore but I have no lasting evidence of these things. Critterlady and I have compared notes on a necklace effect we've both had of these little tiny nodules. I'm sure that's what it is, the crud coming up. You know I've been saying all along that my theory of why I'm healing everywhere else but still going strong on my abdomin is because I think they burrowed deeper there in that nice warm layer of fat and so it's taking longer for the debris to rise to the surface. Well, I've had one or two of these little hard nodules in the past week on each side of my tummy so maybe that's what's happening and I'm finally getting some crud to the surface. Once it gets to the surface, even if I don't dig it off, the itching seems to stop.
P.S. I seriously doubt your collection of body bags would be rising to the surface after only two weeks unless they were unusually close to the surface of your skin. Which could be possible. Do you get hard little nodules? That's what I get when I'm expelling something or somebody. Otherwise, just a real collection of various kinds of sores and bumps and rashes, not necessarily like anything I had in active scabies. And not necessarily in the same locations.
Here's what I know. Lindane, the dreaded most toxic scabies treatment of all, the treatment we spend day and night warning people to stay away from, well Lindane comes in a cream that you rub on your body and leave on for overnight and there's also a shampoo that you wash out after 4 minutes. You do not want to use either of these products. The only other permethrin shampoos I know of are the products made for killing head lice. They are 1% instead of the Permethrin 5%. They're useless with something under the skin.

Doctors and scabies victims both are divided on whether or not to use the Permethrin 5% on your head. Lots of people seem to do it without ill effects, but it scares me to think of putting it on and leaving it for many hours and having it absorb into my brain and the area around my brain. This was a big question for me when I treated, because I treated with Permethrin 5%. Right up until the moment of truth I was back and forth yes I'll put it on my head, no I won't. But I didn't have known problems on my scalp. Someone who does, has no choice except sulfur which is, by the way, a real good option. You'd have to use the stuff for several nights running but that is an option.

To the best of my knowledge, no particular product made for your particular problem. You're going to have to decide between the Permethrin (much safer than the Lindane) and the sulfur I think. The sulfur is perfectly safe but has the downside of several days and nights of having goop in your hair. Depends on whether or not you can take a little time off from work, I suppose. Or if you can pull it off going to work with a new gooped up "spiked" hairdo. One gal on here cut her hair super short and wore it greased to work and everyone thought she had updated and was making a statement! Savvy lady.
(to a poster who’d used perm 5% every day instead of twice, a week apart, and was advocating the same treatment to others):
Very bad advice. Two treatments of any toxin is the max. Please read down this board to read what the consensus is on this board. This lady's opinion is just that, her opinion. I don't believe there's anyone else on this board who would go along with her suggestion.

(Regarding Permethrin 5%) A successful treatment, which includes 8 to 12 hours of being smeared in goop, along with the cleaning regime (which you can also read about below) will kill off live nymphs and adults along with the eggs. The second treatment is an insurance policy in case you made mistakes the first time around (we all do) and also if you scratched off a splotch of the cream during the night, that sort of thing. The general statistics read that 80% of scabies sufferers will be cured after the first treatment of Permethrin 5%. The percentage rises to 90% with the second treatment. In experiments, people were tested with third, fourth and even fifth treatments and the percentage rose only slightly. With the fifth treatment the percentage still was under 95%. And of course there were horrible side effects to those who did the multiple treatments. Please be careful, go slow, educate yourself (I found this board to be the single best resource on the Internet, but there's also a lot of other material out there, some of it is just kids writing graduate school thesis, however, not real experience.) Doctors seem to be sadly undereducated on the complexities of parasitic infestations so beware the medical profession. Please do not take action until you have read a lot and feel confident you understand all facets of infestation (and you're sure of your diagnosis), all facets of the various treatment options and all facets of what to expect after treatment. The lady who posted this advice posted her symptoms a couple of days ago and sounds like she's in post scabies but refuses to accept that. It IS pretty bizarre to have something that doesn't start getting better after treatment; that's why we're here. To help you through this very bizarre situation. We've all been there or are there right now. So we may not have the piece of paper but we certainly can speak with authority. Please read what we have to say before you damage your skin permanently and possibly invite secondary infections and infestations. There are several people on this board right now who have problems they will deal with for the rest of their lives due to overtreatment. Don't be one of them. Read and you shall be empowered.
After that many treatments with a poison I'm surprised you're still able to type! Any time in the future when you have to go to a doctor for anything, be sure to mention this to him. You may have problems down the line with dysfunction of vital organs due to this misuse. This is a much bigger problem for you than your problem with itchies. I'm not trying to scare you, yes I am. You've most likely done serious damage to yourself. Whatever you do, stop using the stuff. If for no other reason than by now you've created a permethrin 5% resistance in your critters. They're just laughing at you and drinking that stuff up like it's a cocktail. Meanwhile your liver is probably all shriveled up. Stop using poisons on your body. Live with your infestation for a while and let your organs heal. Or find an alternative solution. If you've been reading the board, you know about sulfur. Just as effective, although messier and requires more days and nights of treatment. But non-toxic! Go for it. Stay away from the poisons. And be sure to mention this misuse of toxins anytime you see a physician for the rest of your life. If the doc knows about it, it could save your life.

Not a doctor so can't tell you exactly what could happen but toxins are toxic and you've essentially put pesticide on your body to be absorbed for 8 to 12 hours a day however many days you've done this. I would think liver and kidneys could be affected, not to mention blood. This might be something you need to research on the Internet under pesticides. I'm not sure I have this straight (your research will confirm this if it's correct) but I believe Permethrin is a synthetic form of pyrethrins, a commonly used pesticide. So you might want to start your study with pyrethrins.
Yeah, we've all been thrown to the wolves on this one. I knew of it, as they have epidemics of it in our schools. Never any press about it. Just once in a while a sheet of paper comes home from school telling you that there's been an outbreak and if your kid itches you might want to take him to a dermatologist. No other details so I didn't know anything about it either.

Most of us here learned everything we know about scabies from this board. We also learned to trust our doctors a little less.

You really need to read the board, click on any links that are provided and educate yourself. Print out any posts that seem informative and keep them in a special place. You probably will refer to them often. If you've treated properly and cleaned properly your infestation is dead. Still with you but dead. That's post scabies. And it can be really weird. So read. Do not overtreat. Lots before you have. Don't be one of them.

The following response was to a poster whose doctor had prescribed permethrin but the poster felt like he should have prescribed a more potent pesticide:
Don't be angry. The Nix, Permethrin 5%, is probably the safest of the toxins. There is an alternative safer method, but it's messier and takes much longer. Hard to do with husbands and children involved. Especially husbands, they seem to be somewhat angry and uncooperative about this whole inconveniencing thing.
You should be happy your doctor prescribed Permethrin. There's another cream product, Lindane, that is terribly dangerous and we spend hours every week warning people away from it. Sadly, in my area, Lindane seems to be all the dermatologists prescribe. Don't be mad at your doctor. Permethrin is an extremely effective product, and probably the safest of its type. Just make sure you do not overtreat yourselves or any of your precious children. Can be dangerous when it's not used correctly.

When I was first aware what I had, I found this board to be the single most useful research resource. It takes a lot of time, but it's definitely worth it, to read everything you can read on the board. Click on links when they're given and become an educated scabies sufferer. We're not here just for moral support (although that's a big part of it); we're here to answer any questions you may have too. So fire away as you go along in your reading. We'll do the best we can.

I took notes too and they became all jumbled. I advise you to print out any and all posts that seem to have something to say. Keep them in a manilla file folder. After I'd read the entire board I realized I should have done this and I went back over the board and printed stuff out. Wasted a lot of time not just doing that to start with. You wouldn't believe how much I've referred to my "notes."
All members of the family need to be treated at the same time. The environmental cleaning needs to be done at the same time. The pets need to be treated at the same time as their humans.

Have you bathed the cat before? Most cats will tear out your eyeballs before they'll let you bathe them. There's a product in the grocery stoe called Hartz Rid-Flea Carpet Treatment that can be used directly on cats or dogs as a flea powder. It's not cheap, but it's cheaper than the only flea powder in the pet stores (Adam's Flea & Tick Powder) that has the same scabies-killing ingredient. Put this on the cat heavily (start in the head and neck area and work back) just before you treat yourselves. Use it frequently throughout the treatment period.

This was to a poster whose family had treated but they’d done nothing for their cat:
I'm sure you are all in post scabies, but unless all aspects of your environment (including the cat) are cleaned & treated, there's the ping-pong effect to worry about. As a precaution, you might want to treat all members of the family a couple of nights running with a full-body sulfur ointment treatment at the same time you treat the cat. Make sure the cleaning regimen as listed on this board is followed. You are not just cleaning, you are exterminating. Then sit back and relax a little, and be convinced you've wiped them out. But be prepared for continued suffering. Read more about post scabies so you'll know exactly what to expect.

Read the label before you buy anything. I have a feeling these products may all recommend "for kittens over 8 weeks old"
I couldn't find the Aloe Vera juice in the gallon jug in Wal-Mart or any of the pharmacies in my area. I also couldn't find the Pomada de Azufre locally. I paid twice as much as Critterlady paid at Wal-Mart but I found the stuff at www.herbsofmexico.com. It's a California company and I imagine they offer (at a price!) overnight or 2-day shipping so it's worth looking into if you can't find the stuff. You will need about 1 jar per every adult who will treat, and that's just for one full-body treatment. If you plan to treat for 3 nights on, 3 nights off, 3 nights on (which you don't need to do but human scabies sufferers who might be reading this would) you will need a jar of this stuff for each treatment.
I bought some of the Pomada de Azufre from www.herbsofmexico.com and I bought some of the Garma Drugs house brand 10% sulfur ointment product. The Germa Drugs stuff was of a Vaseline consistency. The Pomada is more like a hand lotion. The Pomada is a much nicer product to have to put on and leave on your skin. If you have to order online, go for the Pomada de Azufre product.
I think it depends on what you're looking for. The cortisone ointment will temporarily relieve the itch. The sulfur won't. The sulfur ointment will dry it up and heal the sore quicker but you won't get any itch relief from it.
I have extremely oily skin and had problems with pimples when I was a kid. I found that whenever I used any kind of cream or ointment-based product (including Noxzema) on my skin, the pimples would get nastier and last much longer. I see the post scabies sores doing the same thing. The cortisone is in an ointment or a cream base so you may be prolonging the sores by using that stuff. I, for one, can't tell you you'll hasten the process by drying up the sores, though. I did that and the sores are all gone except for one here and one there. But this godawful itch around my middle just keeps on keeping on. I think it might be a tad improved over 2 weeks ago, but the improvement is so slight I'm not really sure.
If you've recently discovered this board, you have either recently been diagnosed by a physician as having scabies or you are trying to figure out what on earth kind of infestation you're dealing with. Most folks coming onto this board following diagnosis have been prescribed a treatment and have used the prescribed treatment. While waiting for results, they stumble upon this message board.
For those of you who have already treated, please understand that this is not one of those simple situations where you'll treat and it will go away. You need to learn a lot about post scabies or you will be looking for a funny farm to enter when you start having other symptoms following treatment. It's not accurate to say it gets worse before it gets better, but it sure can stay bad for a long time!
For those of you who are trying to figure out what you've got, you have found what I consider to be the single most useful research tool on the Internet. Reading down this board and hearing the plight and descriptions of other folks will help you decide if scabies is your problem. Lots of other types of infestations get discussed on this board, and advice is given regarding other message boards on the Internet for other types of problems. Pictures of scabies rashes/sores/bumps are posted from time to time and you can look at them to see how yours compare.
Many newcomers get freaked out when they first start reading the message board. There's a lot of information to assimilate, and a lot of negative things to consider. You must be detached and read with objectivity, to get the most from your reading. Eventually all this information will come together and make sense to you and will no longer frighten you. You must get over your fear or you most likely will jump into the wrong kind of treatment too quickly and do damage to yourself or your family. Then you'll have to regroup and start back over at square one. So take it slow and take it calmly.

You are here on this message board because you are miserable. The itch is so bad it is affecting your day-to-day life. You will want to jump into the first treatment you read about that sounds viable. Please don't do this. You've been miserable for a long time. A few more days won't kill you. Read all you can and make a commitment to yourself to beat this thing. Spend some time studying and researching insted of treating. Baby your skin. Then attack with a vengeance, when you're knowledgeable and have a well thought-out plan!

Many posters come to this board with a defeatest attitude. Don't panic, don't let this thing conquer your spirit. Yes, it makes your life miserable but there is hope. You must remember it is not life threatening. And you can win, if you're clever, calm and objective. Don't let this thing take you down!

If you use the wrong treatment, you may wind up with lifelong skin diseases. When you get reading about the various treatments you will realize how dangerous they are and how necessary it is to rest your body for several months between treatments, should you need to re-treat. I mention this because you may need to re-treat if you jump into an inappropriate treatment or don't do all the necessary accompanying cleaning routines that go along with treatment.
So if you jump into treatment and do it incorrectly or use an inappropriate product, you may need to re-treat but may be in a position of having to wait several months before you can do so. You would be advised to wait a few days NOW, at the beginning, and get all the available information clearly in your mind, map out a good plan of action, purchase your supplies and then attack.

I am 9 weeks post scabies today. I don't have what I would describe as scars, but I have spots of darker pigmentation everywhere I ever had any scabies sores. The skin is smooth to the touch, nothing there to feel. But I look like a leper! Have no idea how long it takes. Yeah, it looks gross but I'm looking at it that I feel a lot better than I did two months ago. I suffered months with scabies. If I have to go months with these darker spots, so be it. At least they don't itch!
I suspect this isn't the year to buy a new bathing suit!
Educationally speaking, you are going to be amazed at how little is known about this subject. As you read down the board you will find that many doctors, not just general practitioners but also dermatologists, know little about scabies. It's hard to believe that someone with a specialization in skin matters could make mistakes about this, but you will find a lot of disillusionment with doctors on this board.
They frequently diagnose scabies without there being actual proof that scabies are present. Just as frequently, they will say you don't have scabies but you later will find that you do. They frequently will prescribe a treatment that is highly toxic just because it's an old treatment that's been in use for a long time and has good results (from the standpoint of a kill-off, but bad results from the standpoint of unnecesary organ damage.) Well, there are other treatments available that have equally good results but are less toxic. Sadly, many doctors don't even seem to know about these alternatives when they're requested.
Several posters on this board have commented that their dermatologists seemed to be far more savvy in matters of cosmetics than in matters of skin health. This is not to rule out a visit to the doctor. As long as you realize that your doctor is human, most likely not as educated as you will be (after reading this board) on the subject of scabies, and capable of erring, you will be okay. You need to go into this treatment the same way you'd go into anything else: if your heart and mind tells you something's wrong, stop and research because your intuition is worth 500 dermatologists. Remember, a doctor's opinion is just that--one man's opinion. It's a tool for you to use in deciding what is best for you and your family. Take control of your family's health decisions. Make wise decisions based on plenty of knowledge. You can get that knowledge here on this board. Your doctor should be a respected advisor, as should your mother or the old lady down the street who had 14 children and can tell you all about scabies. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. The doctor is not a magician and will not magically heal you. And, sadly, many doctors do more damage than good in this scabies arena. So go into this thing with your eyes wide open.

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